My CEL code

[keely]

Gang, instead of hijacking the other CAI mod thread I thought I'd start a new one announcing the code for my CEL, which I also posted here on GV (just to get as wide an audience as possible). The dealer of course wasn't about to look at solving the problem it unless I authorized them to do out-of-warranty work, and the service manager was quite fluffed that I'd done a modfication.

DTC P0441

System Description
The DTC P0441 Evaporative Emission (EVAP) System No Flow During Purge diagnostic monitors the changes in the vacuum pressure in the fuel tank. The powertrain control module (PCM) will command the EVAP vent valve ON, CLOSED, and the vacuum pressure switching valve ON, OPEN, with the engine running. This allows engine vacuum into the entire EVAP system. The PCM continues to operate the purge valve until the vacuum has reached a specified limit, at which time the PCM commands the purge valve OFF, CLOSED. If the PCM detects the vacuum level was not achieved, or the vacuum level increased beyond the specified limit, a DTC P0441 will set.

...

Diagnostic Aids
- If DTC P0441 is the only EVAP DTC set, the mostly likely cause is an inoperable EVAP canister purge valve. Inspect the EVAP canister purge valve carefully for faulty connections and erratic operation.
- An intermitten malfunction may be caused by a fault in any of the EVAP solenoid electrical circuits. Inspect the wiring hardness and components for an intermitten condition. Refer to Intermittent Conditions.
- If the DTC cannot be duplicated, the information included in the Freeze Frame data can be usefuly in determining the vehicle operating conditions when the DTC was first set.
- Operating the vehicle in CHeck Mode will increase the ability of the powertrain control (PCM) module to detect engine control system malfunctions. Refer to Check Mode in Service Bay Test.

I'll also include what my service invoice states in the relevant section:

32732 [my ODO reading] SES light on scan test and check code P0441 evaporative emission system no flow during purge inspect and check code has aftermarket air cleaner and air intake pipe solenoids hanging and wire tied down couple of vacuum lines plugged off possible customer set codes? when parts disconnected. advised shop foreman and service advisor, leave code chart in vehicle clear codes for now, codes may return.

[keely]

I've received the following advice from Mavrik on GV:

Well I'm going to advise you on exactly what you posted under Diag Aids and that is replace the faulty EVAP Purge Valve...
Depending on what tool you have there (I use GM Tech II) you can trigger the valve in a purge cycle and if you don't hear it click open and closed, then its inop. Your basic code scanner might not be able to do this. All this is unrelated to your CAI... this valve is at the back of the vehicle... unless Toyota put it somewhere else...

And then in reply to my question whether this was warranty work, he said:

well I can't speak for your dealer but 9 times out of 10 we find the problem with the valve and not with where the air comes in... The fuel system is under a pressure, which gets released by the purge valve or loose gas cap.. none of that is related to your intake at all. When we run that code, I can pretty much say with all confidence, the tech never looks at the air filter.

I googled "EVAP purge valve Pontiac Vibe" and found this page. What I'm hoping is that someone can show me where the EVAP purge valve is in the engine so that when the CEL returns and I take it back to my dealer, I can refute their claim it has anything to do with my CAI and show them the EVAP purge valve (also showing them that I can't be bamboozled) and force them to follow their own diagnostic procedures and replace the faulty part as Mavrik believes it is.

[Celtic Curse]

Hey Keely happened to notice that the item on fig.2 in the Gm tech link is something we mess with when installing the CAI. You have a couple of vacuum lines that come off of this thing can't remember if we attach it to anything, but I think IMHO that chances are one of the lines coming off this thing could be in the wrong spot causing your EVAP purge valve to malfunction causing your CEL

This Guy here could be the problem cause the rest of it is at the back of your engine, I'd double check the connections to this thing. Just my 2 bits.

[swirv]

Keely, that particular valve would be kinda floating in the middle of the engine bay just behind the CAI. DJ would have zip-tied it to some other hoses to keep it out of the way. There are 2 thick, black hoses (~1/2" diam.) connected to it.

Also, no offense to DJ, but I took off all the tubing with the golf tees since some were redundant and dead ends anyway.

[DJDoubleLP]

If you car is running.......you will hear this valve clicking ALL THE TIME. Really annoying. A lot of people with Vibe's/Matirx's complained about this and thought that it was a factory default. And like Irvin said.....it should be just about the CAI tube above the bend at the top by the MAF sensor.

[celica girl]

www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?s=b7062238bab2cbf033b09f75f4982b1c&threadid=86590&highlight=P0441

[celica girl]

441: Evaporative Emission Control - System Incorrect Purge Flow


For both codes:

- Vacuum hose cracked, hole, block damaged or disconnected
- Open or short in vapor pressure sensor circuit
- Vapor pressure sensor
- Open or short in VSV for EVAP
- VSV for EVAP
- Open or short in VSV for vapor pressure sensor
- VSV for vapor pressure sensor
- Charcoal canister cracked, hole or damaged
- Fuel tank over fill check valve cracked or damaged
- ECM

just in case anyone else had these codes. so i guess i'll just check all the hoses to the intake and stuff this weekend.

[keely]

SWiRv said:

Keely, that particular valve would be kinda floating in the middle of the engine bay just behind the CAI. DJ would have zip-tied it to some other hoses to keep it out of the way. There are 2 thick, black hoses (~1/2" diam.) connected to it.

Also, no offense to DJ, but I took off all the tubing with the golf tees since some were redundant and dead ends anyway.

One of the black tubes just goes to nowhere and is plugged off with a golf tee. The second leads to a T-junction, one branch goes off on it own and is teed off, the other leads to the CAI. What should I be removing?

[celica girl]

I'll check it out for you next time we meet up. Another thing to check is this....





Make sure that little nubby thing is capped off on your throttle body....

[keely]

I don't see any nubby thing in that area, and obviously nothing capping off the non-existent nubby thing.

[celica girl]

Hmmm... ok... well I think we are having a meet tomorrow... not sure... but we can look at it then.

[DJDoubleLP]

If I am right Keely......you should have a hose running off of there and a golf tee in the end of the hose....remember that fun mod? The reason that we did that is because it was a PAIN to try and put that cap on.

[keely]

I don't think so. As I described above, the dual golf tee mod goes off the EVAP, not the throttle body. If the EVAP is supposed to connect to the throttle body with one of those hoses, it doesn't right now.

[celica girl]

It shouldn't attach to the TB anymore... that's why it's capped off... can you snap a picture of the same spot that I have in those pictures?

[swirv]

One of the black tubes just goes to nowhere and is plugged off with a golf tee. The second leads to a T-junction, one branch goes off on it own and is teed off, the other leads to the CAI. What should I be removing?

I think you are looking at the VSV valve which is located a little lower than the EVAP valve. I think it's better that we physically compare engine bays otherwise we're all gonna be confused. Are we meeting tonight? I still have to work on my yard before it snows!